Kinder Mind
Kinder Mind
Exploring Polyamory: Navigating Relationships, Boundaries, and Love with Dr. Miki Anderson
Are you ready for a thought-provoking journey into the world of polyamory? Dr. Miki Anderson, a licensed clinical mental health counselor, discusses the tricky landscape of multiple relationships. As we discuss the benefits and complexities of polyamory, you'll find that it's not all about sex, but also about emotional fulfillment, community, and effective communication. Dr. Miki's insights will open your eyes to how polyamorous relationships fundamentally differ from monogamy, and the impact they have on mental and emotional well-being.
As we continue our explorations, we dive into the deep end of emotional boundaries in polyamorous relationships. You'll learn from Dr. Miki's first-hand experiences in a triad relationship, as she shares invaluable tips to avoid emotional burnout and communicate boundaries with respect. But there's more. We tackle the challenge of external judgment and misconceptions surrounding ethical non-monogamy. You'll also discover the fascinating legal strides made in Massachusetts where multiple partner unions are now recognized. If you're curious about alternative relationship styles or seeking to broaden your understanding of polyamory, this conversation could be a game-changer. Join us on this enlightening journey.
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Welcome to the kinder mind podcast, where we're devoted to opening up conversations and destigmatizing mental health. We'll bring you interviews with practitioners in the field of mental health, researchers uncovering new knowledge and best practices for treating mental health disorders, and individuals sharing their mental health journey. Today, we're talking with Dr Mickey Anderson, a licensed clinical mental health counselor in North Carolina, south Carolina and Florida. We're exploring polyamory navigating relationships, boundaries and love. Polyamory is a relationship orientation and philosophy that involves having multiple consensual and ethical, romantic or sexual relationships simultaneously. Hi, dr Mickey, thank you so much for being our first ever guest on the kinder mind podcast, where we are talking about polyamory.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so I would say. Personally, I didn't know anything about polyamory or what it even was, until a couple of years ago when a client was talking to me and they were talking about their relationships and they just kind of dropped this word that I was not familiar with and I was like, oh, I'm going to need to Google this after our session to figure out what they are talking about. And I was just so amazed at kind of the premise behind polyamory relationships, learning that it's not a new thing, it's not a modern thing. That just kind of happened. It's actually historical. Many different cultures have engaged in polyamory throughout time. So I'm so excited to be meeting with you today to discuss it and kind of even learn more about it and even educate the world a little bit more about polyamory. So I'd love it if you could just tell us a little bit about what polyamory is and how it differs from traditional monogamous relationships.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess the easiest way to put it is that it's when someone's involved in one or more romantic or sexual relationships, and so a lot of people will come in as like a married couple and would maybe want to find a third partner. I put it like that because some people say like asking for, like looking for a third, and there are different viewpoints on that. But you can just be like solo poly, you can be married, you can have relationship anarchy. But I guess the easiest way to explain it is just one or more romantic partners.
Speaker 1:So then you've got more than one partner in the relationship. Typically from what we've learned in like mental health and you know working with couples is even having two people in a relationship can be a challenge and can be really frustrating at times. So, given your knowledge on polyamory, how would you say that it impacts individuals' mental and emotional well-being?
Speaker 2:I mean, it can help, it can hurt. It's just like with any relationship, like there are boundaries that need to be set in place. You need to be able to discuss your needs and sometimes personalities clash, people just don't get along and other times, you know, it's amazing. Just yeah, just like with monogamous relationships. It's about communication and trust, honesty. There's a lot of jealousy and security that some people might think doesn't happen in polyamory. But jealousy is a valid human emotion and you know, honestly, as you as one dives into polyamory, you know there is a lot of insecurity that comes with that for most, for a lot of people, just because they're having to kind of unlearn a lot of monogamous rules, for lack of a better word.
Speaker 1:Makes sense that there is, you know, challenges for polyamory, just like there's challenges for monogamy, and I think jealousy is really one of those shared challenges. But tell me about the benefits of a polyamorous relationship.
Speaker 2:There's a sense of community for a lot of people and there's this term called kitchen table polyamory, where partners will. It could be partners or partners, partners are all so that it could like literally be sitting around the kitchen table just having a conversation. A lot of people play board games. You know like some people raise their kids together, so you get that sense of community and support and there's also just there's this viewpoint that you know love is infinite and it's just like when you have multiple friends or when you have multiple children, you know your love for those people doesn't lessen.
Speaker 1:Absolutely no. I think that's a really good point. So in polyamorous relationships, how do individuals communicate their emotional needs effectively? What would be a way that because to me it seems like communicating your emotional needs to one person in a monogamous relationship can sometimes be a barrier for a lot of people and feeling that sense of security and opening up? So now add another partner into a relationship. What, in your knowledge and what you've seen work, is the best way for people to really communicate their emotional needs effectively?
Speaker 2:You're going to hear this a lot in the community but communication and they'll just browbeat you with that I feel like it's a lot of talk of communicate but not a lot of how to communicate. There is more information out there with the multi-amory podcast, polysecure and more than two. So with communicating, it's important to even talk about the small things before they build up and become resentments. So it's important to have regular check-ins Sometimes some people do it weekly, some people do it monthly and I think even having regular date nights this is kind of an aside, but as well as date nights for yourself, because just with one relationship it can be difficult to have that time, that individual time, but obviously it's harder the more people you put into the equation. So just making sure you have quality time for everyone involved, including yourself.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. That's such a good point. I think self-care and, like you said, dating yourself is so important for even that continued awareness of identity and your self-confidence, and that's definitely one of the things that I share with my clients when they're like you know, my self-esteem, like I don't know I'm just, I have social anxiety, I don't really know who I am, and like part of that process that can be finding yourself is learning to get comfortable with you, taking yourself to a movie and sometimes that can sound excruciatingly painful to go see a movie by yourself or to sit at a table and have lunch by yourself but through doing those things you can really get comfortable with who you are. And if you're comfortable with you, as you well know, then you can absolutely be comfortable in a healthy relationship with another person, because you're not going to have those you know behaviors of low self-esteem and the clinginess and losing your identity with your partner or partners.
Speaker 1:I think that's a really great call out to date yourself as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and in addition to you know, doing a lot of reading and research on this, like I have, you know, personal experience, so I like to call it fieldwork experience, because I'm a nerd and I have, you know, battled in the past with finding my identity and trying not to lose sight of it, and it was difficult. In past relationships I remember one time I wanted to, I wanted to go to lunch with one of my partners and at the last minute they had to cancel. I don't remember why, but it's not relevant and so I was just at lunch by myself and it was really uncomfortable at first, but it turns out nobody cares and it ended up being a wonderful time. I was at Mellow Mushroom, had some pizza, had a beer and just treated myself and it was just, you know, like emotionally nourishing for me to get out of my comfort zone and to take care of myself.
Speaker 1:That's a really great point. I can empathize with that a lot because I too, did like my own emotional and like self-awareness journey of finding my identity. And what does that look like? Because for the longest time I was that person. I was terrified to go anywhere by myself or do anything by myself. I always needed a person. I really attributed mine to being an only child and just like I need someone with me.
Speaker 1:But I think that you know, like you said, is sitting in that discomfort and then allowing it to go away and see what happens, like that's the only way you're going to learn and grow is through, you know, like that discomfort. And Brene Brown I love her so much, like she's kind of like the pioneer of discomfort and I too had kind of a similar experience of because I think I would get in my own head a lot of if I do this by myself. Everyone's going to look at me, everybody's going to feel sorry for me, everyone's going to be like, why is that poor girl at lunch by herself? But, like you said, nobody cares, like nobody's noticing, like this is a thing that humans that are well adjusted can do. They can do things by themselves. So I think once I overcame that fear of what other people are going to think and say that's when I was really able to do that for myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then you're fulfilling some of your own needs and so then you're not really projecting them on to other people and so, like you said, that takes away that cleanliness, but also it like it shows you what you need in your life, what you can do for yourself and what I guess it kind of holds yourself accountable and you're able to decipher, like what needs need to be met on your own versus with other relationships, like what needs can be met there, and then you can communicate healthy boundaries that way, because you'll know what they are.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I'm so glad you bring up boundaries because, as we know, boundaries are crucial in any relationship. So tell me how polyamorous individuals can establish and maintain boundaries with multiple partners.
Speaker 2:Well, again, like first, you have to know what your boundaries are. And, starting out, like when I started out with polyamory, I honestly didn't know what my boundaries were because I'd never done it before. And I think it's important to talk with potential partners or current partners If you are a couple who are considering opening up your relationship, so that, whether you're dating together, whether you're dating separately, ideally it's good to date separately. Just because it's so hard, it's not impossible. I don't want to give that impression. It's not impossible for a couple to find someone who is attracted to both of them, but that's also.
Speaker 2:The issue is that you have to find one person who's attracted to two different people and so, just kind of knowing that that may not be probable, it's not uncommon, but it's better to date separately because on top of that, there's disentanglement, where it's kind of a growing pain, where you're learning to separate a little bit from your partner, like whether you're married or just been dating for a while where you're not as dependent or codependent on them. You're there because you want to be with them, not because you need to be with them. So, discussing with current or potential partners what your expectations are and somewhat flexible on that, because sometimes it might not be realistic, but just kind of communicating where you are and having a conversation about it and just kind of going from there.
Speaker 1:In a monogamous relationship, finding the way to communicate boundaries and your needs with one partner can be a challenge. And even that thing that we do when we notice that our partner is sad or frustrated or upset, and finding ways to really manage emotions in a way like okay, I notice they're upset, I need to talk to them about it. I want to make sure I'm there to support them as much as possible. Now you're taking that and you're multiplying it by two. What would you say would be a good best practice for avoiding any type of emotional burnout from trying to juggle that?
Speaker 2:Okay, so I will answer this question by using some of my field work experience. What didn't go? Well? I was in a triad and well, it was kind of on and off with the triad. Sometimes I was with one of the partners, sometimes I was with both of the partners, and so it's a little.
Speaker 2:But regardless, in either situation configuration, I guess I would get the drama from both partners about each other, in addition to any drama that I may be involved in, you know. But regardless, I was involved in all of it and while I think, on some level, of course, I needed to know about these things, I gave 100% to both of them and nothing to myself. And eventually there was this point where I said I need a break, where I don't talk to either of you for a few days, and I didn't like doing that. But it ended up being kind of a mutual decision, so I didn't feel too bad about that. I mean, I felt, yeah, I felt appropriately bad, but I guess what I would do in the future is, you know, taking more time for myself and not answering every message as it came in, not just saying I'm not available for X amount of time, that I need to meditate or go for a walk or whatever I would be doing in that time and then revisit it when I was in a clearer headspace. That's so yeah.
Speaker 1:That's such a great point and I think a lot of people can really connect with that, because, whether it's your friends or your children or your partners or partner being on all the time and immediately responding like, oh, someone needs something, let me meet their needs, and oh, this person does too, let me meet their needs it can get emotionally exhausting and, like you said, if we're not setting those boundaries in, the hardest part is then enforcing those boundaries, like OK, I have a boundary.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I have to tell people about it and hopefully I don't hurt their feelings, and that's the part that kind of feels icky. But then again there's that discomfort piece. There's a space for us to grow, and having that communication about I'm feeling overstimulated, I'm feeling emotionally overwhelmed it's no one's fault, but I need to recharge and I need to take some time for me to do that, like meditate or go for a walk or just have a disconnected couple of days where maybe I'm laying on the couch watching Netflix and just letting my mind wander in imagination land. No, I think that's a really great point about if you start to notice that you are on call all the time for no matter who it is, but especially in a relationship where you have other partners that you're trying to stay connected to taking that break, giving yourself that time to recharge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and something you said about communicating boundaries and being concerned about hurting the other person's feelings, like that's such a normal, valid feeling, I think. But what I tend to say to my clients is, so long as you're respectful and the way you communicate it, you can't really control how they respond and I know that's a hard truth because I struggle with it too, which is how I can tell them it's a hard truth. But so long as you're respectful about it, that's pretty much all you can do. And, depending on the situation, it's normal to expect some pushback, because if a boundary's never been placed before, then people kind of assume that everything's always going to be status quo until it's not, and people don't like change. And so I think so long as they're not out and out assholes, then it's okay for them to have whatever reaction they're having, and then they can revisit later like hey, now that I've thought about it a little more, that's actually a reasonable boundary and I'm sorry for acting that way.
Speaker 1:No, that makes tons of sense because, like you said, people don't like change, people don't like feedback, people don't like hearing that something they are doing is not perfect and pleasing everyone, because a lot of people are pleasers and so as soon as their ego receives that feedback, it is very easy to then get reactive. Also, like one of the things I talk to my clients about, because I get it like not being a pushover is hard, setting boundaries is it's crucially. I, too, get those butterflies and pits in my stomach when I have to do it. It doesn't feel good.
Speaker 1:Another thing I talk to my clients about is the power of prefacing. So think about your fears that you have about communicating a boundary to your mom or your partner or your child, and what do you not want them to think? What do you not want them to feel? Okay, there's no guarantee that they're not going to think or feel that, but if you preface your conversation by letting them know that you hope that they don't think, that, you hope that they don't feel that way, and then you tell them your boundary, maybe it makes it blow a little bit easier. Maybe it goes ahead and puts in their mind like, well, she truthfully doesn't want me to feel like she is bullying me or ganging up on me or criticizing me and intentionally hurting me. She's just giving me feedback, again, not completely bulletproof and foolproof, but sometimes prefacing can be helpful, especially if you've already got a pretty good resemblance of open and clear communication with that person. It could be a nice safety net in place.
Speaker 2:And using those I statements saying like I feel this way when X happens, and therefore blah, blah, blah. The boundary.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Avoiding those attacking you, you this, you that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because if they're going to be on the, if you're going to use defensive language, then you know that ego's like that, ego's gonna like the walls are gonna come up.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely, and so in another way or another thing kind of segue into my next question People don't like change. People don't like things that don't feel normal, and so I know we've mentioned before that. You know non monogamous Relationships ethical non monogamous relationships have been around throughout history, but that's not a norm for our society. It can sometimes lead to stigma or misunderstanding about polyamory and people who make those choices to be in those relationships getting mistreated, treated poorly and judged by people they know and love and complete strangers. How would you say that Individuals in polyamorous relationships can cope with external judgment and continue to prioritize their relationship and mental health?
Speaker 2:I would suggest going online to find local communities and if you can't find local, then you know, maybe a Facebook group unless I'm dating myself by saying that there's probably a Reddit group. So I'm still cool, honestly. It's okay not to be out if you're like, if you're not comfortable, or if you have, you know family that you know you fear judgment over, or maybe you have a teaching job or a mill or you're in the military or something you know you might need to Keep it a secret and that's okay. But having that support, finding that community, however you can, I think is important to mental health and knowing that you're not alone in it.
Speaker 1:What are some common misconceptions about polyamory that you've heard or witnessed, or experience that you'd like to address?
Speaker 2:When I told my mom that I was Polly she she said, yes, she'll be fine with me saying this. She said, oh yeah, back in my day we just called that a key party and I'm like, well, not that's, that's more swinging, but but that's under the ethically non monogamous umbrella. So you're in the ballpark. I was one of the funnier things that I heard, but mostly that it's. It's just a way to get away with. Cheating is the big one I hear.
Speaker 1:Tell me some advice that you could give to. You know individuals whose friends or family members just don't understand and might even be on the fence about ending their relationship with their friend or family member after you know finding out their polyamorous like. Give me some advice, maybe for the individual that's going through that.
Speaker 2:So what I would say to the person is to At some point, if they're ready for it, talk to the friend and explain what polyamory means you know to them and maybe that would. Maybe there would be some understanding there. If that conversations not possible for whatever reason, then writing a letter to that person that they do not send and it can be unfiltered. You know, like if there's any anger, resentment, whatever, it can go in there and Then they can read it over and burn it, and if they still want to somehow have a conversation, then writing a second draft and maybe sending an email, mailing the letter or even a text message. I guess, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm a big fan of the written communication and hard situations where it seems like having verbal communication would just blow up and be a disaster.
Speaker 1:So I think that's a really great idea. Sounds like that could work for a family member as well. Would you say yeah? So, thinking about the stigma, that absolutely does exist. I know there have been strides happening in reducing that stigma and making alternative relationship styles to monogamy more accepted. It's definitely still in its infancy and kind of based on where you're located in the country and community, but I know in Massachusetts there's actually two towns who have legalized multiple partner unions and marriages. I want to say Somerville, massachusetts, and Medford, massachusetts, where you can legally be married to more than one person and kind of celebrate your polyamory that way. So, thinking about that advance, is there anything else you think that we could do as a society working to reduce the stigma around this?
Speaker 2:I think people who are comfortable being out keep doing that. Yeah, just talk to your friends about it, talk to your family about it, if you are comfortable and safe and able to do so, of course, but just making it like a normal conversation.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think we all dream of the day where we can just openly be who we are and love who we love and live our lives in a kind of open way, as long as we're not harming other people.
Speaker 1:But maybe that's a utopian dream, maybe it never happens, but I think that's a really great call out to you know, if you are comfortable being out and you're comfortable living your life like that, that is helping to challenge the norms and the what is accepted, because when there's, you know, 15 people lined up who are going to pass judgment and hate you for your choices, there's also going to be other people, like that community you mentioned, who support you and are there for you and your choices. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, dr Mickey, to talk about polyamory. Before we go, I did want to share that Dr Mickey is our new state director for our mental health counselor program out of North Carolina. So she is building her kinder mind North Carolina mental health counselor group right now and I just wanted to check in with you to see if you wanted to share with the world what your goals are for being the state director for North Carolina kinder mind.
Speaker 2:I mean I just want to increase access to mental health care in the state and I mean I find it. It can be so difficult now nowadays because so many therapists are backed up. They have three, four month wait list and some people lack transportation. On top of that, you know, a lot of people work from home and it's just on top of that. It's just more convenient for even the people who aren't working from home, people who do have transportation but maybe they have an hour lunch break. You know well most people that they have that or less, but you know, but they don't have time to drive to an office, go to therapy and then drive back to work. But they may have time to, you know, eat during a therapy session. So just having more availability for mental health.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's so great, absolutely, and this mental health crisis that we're in it's kind of been here even before COVID. I think COVID just really shines light on the fact that we need more therapy options, we need more providers. So it's so great and we're so excited that you're joining us to help us increase access to the folks in North Carolina. If there's anyone who has any questions about what we talked about today with Polly Amary or questions about Kindermine North Carolina, would you be comfortable sharing your email address with Kindermine?
Speaker 2:It's drmicky D-R-M-I-K-I at kinderminecom Awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks so much again, Dr Mickey. It was a pleasure speaking with you and we will be back with episode two on the Kindermine podcast in about one week. The Kindermine podcast is produced and edited by Dr Elizabeth Barlow, with music by Pax Minerva.