Kinder Mind
Kinder Mind
Exploring Abuse: Faith, Spiritual/Religious Abuse in Counseling
Join us for a thought-provoking conversation as we navigate the often murky waters of faith, abuse, and the role of mental health counseling in this delicate balance. Our esteemed guest, Chris Conley, LPC, brings a wealth of professional expertise to the table as he sheds light on how spiritual or religious abuse can damage a person's relationship with the divine, leading to feelings of depression, anxiety, fear, and trauma. We delve deep into the ethical responsibilities of mental health professionals when addressing faith or spirituality with clients, emphasizing the need to maintain objectivity and refrain from pushing any religious agenda.
Ensuring a positive therapeutic impact involves understanding and respecting a client's personal convictions. We discuss the importance of understanding a client's worldview in the counseling process, touching on how abuse can cause a person's worldview to crumble, leading to significant mental health concerns. But it's not just about the clients' worldviews, we also touch on the importance of recognizing diverse beliefs and practices within faiths.
Navigating faith isn't a journey one needs to embark on alone. We highlight online resources like recoveringfromreligion.org, secularnetwork.org, and Clergyproject.org- virtual spaces that can prove invaluable in the healing process. We also introduce the Spiritual Harm and Abuse Scale, a tool that can facilitate understanding and recovery. Remember, you don’t have to be an expert in faith to provide help. An open mind, an attentive ear, and the ability to ask the right questions can make a world of difference. Tune in for an enlightening discussion on the complex relationship between faith, abuse, and mental health counseling.
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Welcome to the Kinder Mind podcast, where we're devoted to opening up conversations and destigmatizing mental health. We'll bring you interviews with practitioners in the field of mental health, researchers uncovering new knowledge and best practices for treating mental health disorders, and individuals sharing their mental health journey. A big welcome to our Kinder Mind podcast listeners. I'm Dr Barlow and today I'm joined with Chris Conley, LPC, to talk about exploring abuse faith, spiritual, religious abuse and counseling and to really open up this topic and explore what this means, what this looks like, how this is experienced, and to really have Chris share his professional expertise on his experiences and what he's seen in the field. Thank you so much for joining us today, chris. It's great to have you.
Chris Conley, LPC:Yeah, thank you so much. It's good to be here. I like taking any opportunity. I can't talk about this subject. It's important out there, but I don't hear a lot of people talking about it.
Dr. Barlow:For sure. So when I was actually reading through your experience and even this topic of faith and spiritual religious abuse, I was trying to figure out what angle we're approaching it from, because what my brain immediately went to was being in kind of a spiritually abusive situation with maybe a church or a past religion. But then I think there's also a context of where you could work with a therapist who might have a very hard and fast stance on oh you should pray about it or you should do this or that. Tell me what context we're talking about it in today.
Chris Conley, LPC:Yeah, I think when most at least in the conversations I have when most people think about spiritual or religious abuse, they think about the things on the news where maybe there are scandals in certain churches with actual other types of abuse like sexual abuse, physical abuse and those definitely fit. But I think of it as more along the lines of when that spiritual or religious relationship a person has is abused or manipulated by somebody who is maybe in some sort of position of power or authority in that structure to take advantage of a person. So that could be a therapist who brings a spiritual lens into their practice. That could be a pastor or a priest or a religious leader. It could also just be somebody in the family or a mentor who holds a spiritual yeah, I use a spiritual authority over somebody.
Dr. Barlow:Okay, so like a parent or like a religious figure and really using faith and spirituality to incorporate it into the abuse.
Chris Conley, LPC:Right, and that might be things where somebody shames a teenager who's maybe engaging in, like some, sexual behavior. They come from a religious background, or maybe that's not accepted, and instead of lovingly guiding somebody into whatever this agreed upon moral stance is, it's using that to push shame, to push guilt on a person and then to overtake them or overpower them, and a lot of times, it serves the aggressor in terms of stroking their ego. A lot of times, you'll see narcissistic individuals in that position. The best way that I try to think about it, though, is the person's relationship with God, the universe, the divine, however you want to define that spiritual piece is as significant a relationship as a romantic relationship or a family relationship, and when we look at those kinds of relationships, we're pretty good at identifying what's abusive, and that's when something in that relationship is not treating the other person well.
Chris Conley, LPC:So we think about domestic violence. That's a trusted relationship where, now, one person is taking advantage of and manipulating that relationship. We think about neglect with kids, and that's where somebody in a power authority in that relationship is not doing by the child, and a lot of times it's serving ego or it is a power grab, a control grab. I know, abuse is way more complex and there's layers far beyond that. That's a good framework for thinking about how spiritual or religious abuse can work too. That's a very and just like the other ones that we just mentioned, it can be manipulated and bring harm.
Dr. Barlow:Absolutely, and you made a really great point about those types of abuses and the byproducts of that and the feelings and emotions that come into play, and even the mental health disorders experienced by clients who have gone through domestic abuse, sexual abuse, things like that. How does faith or spirituality often intersect with mental health in the form of abuse?
Chris Conley, LPC:Yeah. So this is where part of me said you stick to that framework of how would you look at abuse and other situations, and then you apply to the spiritual or religious lens, and so I'll just use those two experiences I use the moment ago. If you have somebody who's in a romantic relationship and now domestic violence takes place, there's going to be the potential for depressive symptoms, anxious symptoms, fear, anger, all these things. Existential crisis, because this relationship I thought was safe is now not safe and all the things that come along with that. And so it's anything. The kid is going to neglect the parents, who are supposed to love me, to take care of me, provide for me. Now they're not safe and they're not doing their thing.
Chris Conley, LPC:So it leaves the same kind of symptoms, potentially of depression, anxiety, stress, trauma, all those things. What's the same with spirituality and religion? If I have a worldview that says the world works this way, whether that is God protects us or that is Jesus loves me, or that is the multitude of different beliefs that are out there, once an abuse enters into that relationship, that stuff starts to be questioned. Right, okay, so Jesus loves me because that's what my pastor taught me, but now my pastor is manipulating me, hurting me, taking advantage of me, that whole worldview starts to crumble. And if that view crumbles, just like these other relationships now I'm having depressive symptoms, anxious symptoms, fears, thinking about like my whole world is changing.
Dr. Barlow:I think that's a really interesting concept to think about, because I know that when we talk with clients, often our focus, especially in the beginning of working together, is to understand the client's worldview and to have them really inform us of. What does your culture look like? What does your world look like? What's your core belief system? How was that formed? And I think it's a really great point to incorporate faith, like faith is a very big part of a lot of individuals core belief systems and what makes them who they are. So I think that's really not only interesting but profound that you put so much faith in a higher power, as so many do. What happens when that crumbles? What happens when that is a bad, negative, abusive relationship? What are some common signs or like red flags for you that might indicate that a client either may have experienced faith or spiritual abuse, or might even be in a faith or spiritually abusive relationship right now?
Chris Conley, LPC:Yeah, it's hard to know with certainty because when it comes to religious, spiritual things there's a bit of subjectivity to it and things that I might hold in my moral compass of how the world should work. We know this as counselors and therapists. Our worldviews are always aligned with our clients. So I think you can get stuck sometimes if you see somebody who's in a religious practice that you just don't like or that you don't think is good or beneficial, and you can be tempted to fall into thinking like maybe that's not good for them, maybe that's abusive. So I try to think about it in clinical terms. If I see somebody who is experiencing depressive symptoms, anxious symptoms, and then when the thing of spirituality, their religion, their faith system or lack thereof comes up, if I notice a correlation there, I might start to explore to see if there is something abusive in that connection.
Chris Conley, LPC:So if you do intake with somebody starting to get to know them and they identify as a certain religion, and then the more you get to know them in therapy, as they talk about it, when that topic comes up you hear language of guilt and shame, a lot that can point you to it. But you just notice when they talk about it. They don't seem to feel great about it. That's an indicator that, even if it's not abusive, all the way that there's something uncomfortable about that part of their world. And again, that's where subjectivity makes it hard to, because a lot of religions do teach there's a tension between our existence in the world and the spiritual dimension, and so tension is not necessarily even a bad thing. But those are the things you look for is how does your client, how does our body language change when they're talking about faith or faith experiences or relationships within their faith community? Do they flat out express confusion, or do they express tension or disbelief or conflict? And at that point you can dig deeper with them.
Dr. Barlow:I was thinking, as you were speaking, about a client that I worked with over a year ago who was a college age student and very faith based, and one of the first conversations we had she was feeling symptoms of depression and dread and just a lot of self loathing because she could not stop having sexual intercourse with her boyfriend and every time she would have an orgasm she would cry and immediately break down and hate herself for weeks at a time because she felt that God was mad at her for that and that was interesting for me to hear.
Dr. Barlow:But then not really a far stretch, because I know some religions it's God has viewed different ways. It's not not every religion is the same. So some religions it's very much abstinence, fire, brimstone, like doomsday revelations. Other religions are much more like loving and open and maybe it's not even the religion but the church you go to the pastor, the preacher, the reverend. So for her this was a really big life situation when she felt really stuck and lost and sad about. I'm interested to hear if you happen to have a client that you've worked with in the past that you could share with us just to help illustrate what it might look like for someone to be going through this in real life.
Chris Conley, LPC:Yeah, I have one that really comes to mind. I worked with years ago came from a pretty conservative, fundamental Christian background and I'd maybe be clear I don't have anything against any religion or faith, but this young man identified as being gay and when he came to see me for counseling he wanted to see if I could help him not be gay. And, of course, walking him through that conversation in the intake, I told him I was like that's not really a thing we could do. However, I'm happy to help you explore why you're having these tensions, etc. Etc. It all ended up boiling down to his belief that being gay was wrong in the eyes of God and so he wanted to not be that. And this is where it gets really hard, because if somebody has a conviction from their faith that says this, I have to not challenge what they believe about their faith, because you want to respect somebody's faith, and so it's more like pointing out what you're hearing and trying to get down to find a conclusion about it.
Chris Conley, LPC:What I ended up doing with this guy after I don't even know how long is. I just asked him how he knows that Right. So how do you know that being gay is wrong in the eyes of God. And he shared like I go to this church and my preacher preached this sermon. Okay, cool. So that's like one one piece of evidence and column, a here, what else? And he said something about maybe reading an article or something here or there.
Chris Conley, LPC:Oh yeah, just reading an article or seeing something on the internet, and I didn't just push back, oh that's silly or anything. I was like cool, that's that stuff you've read that's convinced you of this, awesome. What I challenged him to do Was I said you're making a decision about how you live your life Based off of what you told me a preacher said and some articles you've read. He did you know what your holy book says for yourself? And he said he had an idea. So my challenge to him is you are making a decision that has a huge impact on your life, because if you believe being gay is wrong in the eyes of God and you live by that conviction, then your choices to live in a way that you think is harmful to what you believe about the world, or You're gonna practice some version of abstinence or chastity and miss out on what most of us would consider fundamental human experience romance, companionship, sexual gratification. And I just challenged him I'm like man, I just study that stuff for yourself.
Chris Conley, LPC:The Bible is an old book. It's. Most people, I think, would agree there's wisdom in there, but there are thousands of ways to interpret that. And I just challenged or said do it for yourself. I said, if you do the work and you study it and you still land on that conviction, cool, I'm not gonna tell you not to have it, but then you can at least for yourself know you got there honestly and that's what you really believe, and it's not something that you're just Taking from somebody else who could potentially have an agenda or a misunderstanding of things. And and he did that and, to be fair, I don't know if he fully landed- it anywhere before we discharged.
Chris Conley, LPC:But I could see that he really tried to engage that process.
Dr. Barlow:I Think that's so great that you were able to Do what was necessary on your end as a helping professional and not tell him like, oh, that sounds messed up or this sounds right.
Chris Conley, LPC:But allow him to Make that choice and help him to really dig through and ask the questions and I'll say the secret with that is that's what we do with a lot of other areas and counseling right. If you have a client that's dating somebody that you think is bad for them, unless you're talking about something where there's imminent danger, you don't necessarily argue. I don't know if that's the best girlfriend for you or if somebody's talking about taking a job and you just don't think it's a great I we don't push that. I think because a lot of us have our own personal convictions on these things and then in some areas, like our culture is really loud on what's right and wrong.
Chris Conley, LPC:But I think it makes it easier for our therapist to be tempted to jump in there and be get some sort of answer man, that sounds really silly, like why would you even think about that? But without recognizing this person is at the place they are because they've been on a path that's led them to really believe and think these things and I actually I run the risk of, if I'm super dismissive of that, I'm almost at the risk of making them feel just really dumb. Right, you've been a rust, if you've been a wrestling with this for your whole life, and like in five minutes I tell you well, that's really stupid, am I telling you've been an idiot your whole life. And then what does that do for the therapeutic relationship and what does that do for them trying to find peace of mind in whatever they're battling or trying to figure out?
Dr. Barlow:Absolutely, completely negates any type of Positive therapeutic impact you're gonna have with that client. If you're immediately just, you shouldn't be thinking that way or living that way. We can't come with the answers. Our clients have the answers and it's our job to help them to see that they have those answers and get Beyond that. I can only see my hand in front of my face. I can't see 10 feet in front of my face.
Dr. Barlow:Absolutely that makes tons of sense. I think that brings up a really great kind of next question Can you tell us about the ethical responsibilities that mental health professionals have when addressing faith or spirituality in therapy with clients?
Chris Conley, LPC:Yeah, number one is this is your client's time, so this is not a time for you to have an agenda. Spiritually, religiously and I know there are some faith traditions that in the context of the house of worship they do have some pretty strong convictions about fossilizing or sharing your faith with people and, like, the therapy room is just not the place for that because it removes. It just removes the objective or, yeah, the objectivity in the relationship. But it's just. It's also it's not over there, for no, that doesn't mean that if you're a deeply religious person, you can't be a good therapist. You just have to be aware of that stuff and it's similar to almost like political stuff as well. I don't know if you saw this, but when the COVID times and the couple of years leading up to COVID times, where politics and issues in our culture were just really hot and heavy in the news cycle, I was literally asked by clients who I was voting for because they were going to make decisions about if they could trust me as their therapist based on that.
Dr. Barlow:Oh, wow, yeah.
Chris Conley, LPC:I had to walk. I had to walk them through like why we're not talking about that? And, of course, if at any point you don't think I'm a good therapist, I want you to see somebody you feel good about. But religion is the same way for a lot of people. There's that strong feeling. It's not uncommon for people to want a therapist who bears that with them. So I run a practice here in Virginia Beach, virginia, and a lot of times we get a question or request of hey, I want a Muslim therapist, hey, I want an atheist therapist, hey, I want a Christian therapist. Like, when we can, we do our best to accommodate that. But also, that's not the place for the place for our therapist to come in with a religious agenda, even if that therapist is convinced that there are some good tools in that.
Chris Conley, LPC:I think it's clear that healthy religious practices for the most part are good for our mental health. You can say, if you have somebody who is your client and they're a Buddhist but they're not really practicing any of the Buddhist practices and now they're talking to you about having some stress, depression, existential conflict, there's benefit to saying, hey, are you meditating? Hey, are you doing A, b and C. That's a worthwhile conversation, but that's because you identify that as an effective coping skill or something in their life that is supposed to bring them some encouragement or peace. It's not the same as me saying hey, actually you sound stressed like I'm a Buddhist and one of the things that we really do is we take a lot of time for meditation and self-reflection. You could totally be a Buddhist like me and find some peace.
Chris Conley, LPC:That's where there's a difference between welcoming someone's faith and faith practices into the relationship of counseling versus bringing yours in there. And then, on top of that, it's very important to be upfront too, and if you don't know something about your clients' religion that they've identified, they don't try to pretend you do ask questions, that you can do so appropriately and non-judgmentally. Most people don't mind explaining that stuff to you if you seem genuinely curious, but you can't try to pretend like you get that stuff if you don't get that stuff, which is hard for some therapists, because then they might feel like they're not doing a good job if they have to ask those kinds of questions, because sometimes I think we feel the pressure to know everything and of course, we can't know everything. That's why we do podcasts like this, so we can keep learning.
Dr. Barlow:Absolutely, and I love that point, and that is one of those pieces that I am always shouting from the rooftops with my supervisees and any interns that I have at our therapy group is it is not only okay to not owe everything, it is an expectation to not know everything, because the second that you think that, exactly what this client is going through, you just made an assumption and you are horrifically wrong. And that is a lot of the client education piece, too, that I love to have conversations with clients about, because it's not about finding the right age therapist, it's not about finding the therapist that has lived your experience and that's the only person that's going to be able to help you. It's about finding a good therapist. And what does that mean? What is a good therapist? A good therapist is someone who is willing to learn and maybe they have experienced some of the same things that you have. They're not going to immediately bring that up.
Dr. Barlow:They're only going to have that self-disclosure if it's appropriate and it does no harm. For an example, I have worked with clients who have been survivors of date rape. I myself have never been raped. That doesn't mean that I can't work with you and I can't give you the space to educate me about what you went through, because rape victims aren't the same. There's no directly correlatable experience among all rape victims and if I've worked with one, then I've worked with 50, no, they're all individuals. They're all different. They all have their own story. So it sounds like that's the same thing when it comes to faith is it's not the same faith denomination. It might even still be Christianity, but one person's experience with their faith might not be the exact same. And if you are a therapist of faith or a Christian therapist working with a Christian client, that doesn't necessarily mean that your client worships the way that you do and that they believe what you believe.
Chris Conley, LPC:So really having that realism and that yeah, there's two really great points in there. Like you were just saying, you could take something as plain as I'm a Christian, I'm a Muslim, I'm an Hindu, and that doesn't mean the same thing person to person. I know this most intimately in the Christian circle, like there's a wide spectrum from like super fundamental, conservative Christians all the way to like very liberal, open Christians, hundreds of different denominations, and so there's a lot of differences there. But the other thing that kind of came to my mind while you were saying that is, I think the reason those requests are made by clients is going back to what we said towards the beginning, right, no-transcript or spiritual system as a really big part of their worldview. And so there is going to be some comfort.
Chris Conley, LPC:If I'm going to embrace in something that's heavy like counseling therapy, maybe even scary, because I've never done it, I'm nervous. It's nice to know that I share that worldview, even if that's not completely true, it's a comforting factor. And then there are some faith traditions or branches of faiths that are not the most supportive of counseling and therapy, and so to say, hey, this one's okay because they're an Hindu like me, they're a Muslim like me, so this isn't just like that secular, terrible counseling stuff. So those are, I think, a couple of reasons why those requests come in like that, and I do think there's value to honoring that where you can.
Dr. Barlow:I completely agree and, like you said, and I even gosh, I have a personal experience where that's happened before. I was raised Catholic self-disclosure and during my time in grad school I just had a baby my husband's in the military. I'm thinking of doing a grad school and I just felt really overwhelmed. I'd never been in therapy.
Chris Conley, LPC:I'd never even entertained that idea.
Dr. Barlow:So go to my primary care doctor because of my insurance and I asked for a referral to talk to a psychiatrist. I didn't even know that there were other forms of therapy and this was 2010. So not incredibly long ago, and the doctor looked at me like I was crazy, immediately left the room. The nurse came in and gave me the number, burger pastor, and said I think you need to call him, I think he's gonna be able to help you. And I was just like don't get me wrong Like I was raised on faith, like I know the value of faith, but in that moment that is not what I was needing or asking for.
Dr. Barlow:And it's just. It's interesting to me how even others in the helping fields can think oh, I have the answer Faith is what you need and I'm gonna make sure that that's the course that you take, or I'm gonna highly recommend that's the course you take, to the point where I don't even offer you another option. So I was never given any type of referral to a therapist or any type of education. And then, as I was leaving, everyone was looking at me like I was about to just stand there and slip my wrist or something. It was insane.
Chris Conley, LPC:Yeah, self disclosure myself. For the reason and I'm very passionate about this topic is because I've been enmeshed in it. Right, I think that's how maybe not for everybody, but a lot of us find our passions in mental health. Work is either our own experiences or those of people who are close to us, but I've spent a lot of time working in faith communities churches to the point of even being on staff at churches and I've always wrestled with this tension of I see a lot of people who get hurt in these systems by these kind of abusive, manipulative relationships. But I also see the value of somebody who has a really genuine, meaningful faith, and so my career has bounced back and forth between those two arenas to where now I'm on a mission to figure it all out and help other people figure it out.
Dr. Barlow:I love that. I love missions of figuring it out for ourselves. And what can we do then to help others figure it out? That's one of my favorite missions, so that's so awesome. Tell me, how can someone who's experienced faith or spiritual abuse and therapy begin the process of healing and overcoming that and even getting back on a therapeutic journey?
Chris Conley, LPC:Yeah, starting is always the hardest part for stuff like this, especially if you do come from one of those places we were just talking about earlier where maybe therapy is not fully supported or a little frowned upon. But I'll frame it this way man, if this is like somebody who's listening and they're like I don't know, I'm in this weird place, just take some time and reflect on your feelings, explore the beliefs of your faith tradition as objectively as possible. But be upfront too when you do get to a counselor, if you're aware that this is what's going on, because actually what I find is a lot of people don't know this is a big part of what's going on, until it's unmasked after some therapy. But if you know, be upfront with your therapist. Say, hey, I'm really struggling with my religion and its impact on my life. Hey, I'm having a hard time because I think God is good, but my life is terrible right now and I don't know how to synthesize those ideas. Just being honest, and one thing I don't think in general that I don't clients don't know is it is okay to interview your therapist a little bit and ask hey, I'm really having a hard time because my family brought me up to be Muslim, but I don't really believe those things anymore, but I want my parents to still like me. Is that something you think you can handle? To you understand the Islamic faith? You can ask your therapist those questions. So if you know that's a part of what you're dealing with, ask.
Chris Conley, LPC:The other thing I really encourage people to do, which is hard for a lot of us, is lean on social supports if you have healthy social supports and that's where it gets tricky, because sometimes your social supports can be enmeshed in that faith community and so they might not be helpful. But if you know you have friends or family who can be objective and love you and not pushing agenda on you and are willing to listen to you even if they don't have solutions, leaning on those kinds of things. And then the internet is a wild West frontier of good and bad. There's actually a lot of places you can go online to find support, whether it's through chat groups, reddit, forums. There's even a handful of organizations out there that specifically exist to help people navigate faith.
Chris Conley, LPC:Christ Preparing for this. I was looking for some groups to share. There's groups out there that are for like are you a pastor who doesn't have faith anymore but don't know how to make a transition in your life. There's a group for that. There is a group that shares resources for finding therapists who are exclusively secularists, so that if you're so wounded by faith, you don't have to worry about a therapist doing anything in that arena, even if by accident. But it's hard. It's hard to get started in that process.
Dr. Barlow:For sure. So you mentioned some really great options for resources. Are there specific websites or links that you could share with our listeners in case they want to go there, and we'll also include it in the description of the transcript for this podcast as well.
Chris Conley, LPC:Yeah, there are three I had here already, thank you, there's many. And then there's also places that are just general online chat forums in general, like Reddit, where you can go find a group. There is a recovering from religion excuse me, recovering from religionorg which is a resource for people who are grieving belief, which is huge because, again, like at one point, you believed some of this, maybe, or this faith system or even this pastoral relationship, contributed to how your world worked and now it doesn't. Like that's a grieving process to move on from. I thought the world worked this way and now it doesn't. But that's recovering from religionorg. Org is that secular network I was talking about.
Chris Conley, LPC:And then clergy projectorg is specifically for clergy who are grieving a belief system. And then there is a screener that clinicians can use called the spiritual harm and abuse scale S, h A S, and the URL to get there is really long, but if you just Google spiritual harm and abuse scale, it will come up in your top one or two search results and it's like most of our screenings where it has a bunch of questions and like your scales and rate this and rate that to help. It's obviously not going to be able to give you a full diagnosis or anything? Not that there's really a spiritual abuse diagnosis anyways, but it's definitely a good way to take like an objective tool the gauge or somebody's that.
Dr. Barlow:That's awesome. I didn't even know that scale existed, so that's really great. I'll definitely be sure to share that resource out with my group as well. So what are some key takeaways or messages of hope that you'd like to leave us, our listeners, with today?
Chris Conley, LPC:Yeah, number one is I think if you have a meaningful faith, it can be very beneficial to your overall well being and mental health. It's easy to talk about spiritual abuse, religious abuse. It's really easy for that to go down a path of religion. It could be harmful and bad. No abusive religion can be bad, but healthy religion is actually pretty good for people. Right, it gives us a moral compass, it gives us purpose, it gives us meaning and provides an area for us to build social relationships, all of which anybody who's worked in mental health for more than five minutes we know that brings life to people.
Chris Conley, LPC:So I think the important thing to remember is it's when those abuse, those relationships are abusive. There's manipulation, there's power, and I'm going to go back to where we started by saying you think about it the way you think of any abuse. Right, An abuse and abusive relationship happens because a relationship that's supposed to be trusted and safe becomes unsafe. But that only happens because there is a understanding there that this is supposed to be a trusted relationship. Right, the domestic abuse in a romantic relationship is doubly hurtful because that's supposed to be a trusted relationship. The kid that's neglected and not taken care of by his parents like that's doubly hurtful because that's supposed to be a trusted relationship. And I would say it's the same with our faith or spirituality. That's supposed to be a healthy, trusting relationship. And the people who represent that, whether that's pastors, priests, mentors, family members all these folks like if those relationships are healthy, they're great, but if they're abusive, then they're doubly harmful. But if you're a therapist, you don't have to be religious or have any kind of deep spiritual practice to be able to help these folks.
Chris Conley, LPC:One of the things I always tell my residents supervises and turns is when you feel stuck on something, you go back to the basics. Right, You're active, listening. Tell me more about that. How does that make you feel? How is that impacting you? And you can throw like a education in there about how trauma works. You don't have to be like oh, I just happen to be the expert on abusive Hindu practices. You're in the right place. You don't have to be that person. So I don't know. I could talk to you about this for hours, so I'm going to stop now before I do that.
Dr. Barlow:No, I appreciate it so much. I think it's been such a great conversation and I love that last note of just really reiterating on that. You don't have to know everything. Be a listener and be curious Like these people are coming to you and bearing their soul whether it's about past abuse with family or religion or whatever they're coming to you for therapy for. Be a listener, ask questions, don't expect to know everything. That makes you a great therapist because you're willing to get to know this person and work with them as a team, not somebody that's going to tell them what to do. And I think that was probably one of my favorite things I learned early on was you're not here to give advice Like you are, not like an advice column, you're not like an article writer or somebody's coming to you for you to tell them what to do. That's not what a therapist is. Therapist is having someone on your team to help you find the plan that you're going to check.
Dr. Barlow:Whether that plan is going to work or not. There's no guarantee but the one that you're comfortable trying, and then we're going to go from there. We're going to reevaluate. If it didn't work, we're going to see why not, and then we're going to try again. That's what therapy is.
Chris Conley, LPC:Yeah, I've been practicing for a long time and the longer I practice you can learn specialties and go get your continuing ed and all that and you should. But I'm surprised at just how effective the basics are. To literally look at somebody and say that sounds hard, tell me more. And it's such a healing moment.
Dr. Barlow:Absolutely, absolutely. Like just the value and not trying to have all the answers, because I think so many times in life people like to be educators, even whether they have any business educating you or not.
Dr. Barlow:People want their opinions, and that's not what therapy is Like. Therapy is not for your opinion. Therapy is for the evidence-based practices and you being a good listener for your client and really validating what they're going through. So thank you so much again, chris, for joining us today to have this conversation. We haven't had this conversation yet about faith and spiritual therapy and I really appreciate your time today and all of our listeners. Stay tuned. Our next episode drops next Friday.
Chris Conley, LPC:All right, thanks for having me.
Dr. Barlow:The Kinder Mind Podcast is produced by Dr Elizabeth Barlow, edited by Marco. Antonio with music by PAX Minerva.